RW: Dennis Carney is an activist and therapist whose work is centred on promoting Black gay sexual health, visibility and indeed, Black gay love. He was born in Hulme in Manchester in 1962, he moved London when he was 20 to live as an openly gay man. Three years later he became involved with the Black, Lesbian and Gay Centre, quickly becoming its treasurer and then the Chair of the Centre a position he held for five years.
In the 1980s Dennis was a pioneer a pioneer of Black gay visibility and the promotion of sexual health and safe sex. In 1990 he set up Let’s Rap, the UK’s first ever Black gay men’s discussion group. He was also involved in establishing the Black Experience entertainment collective, and the group Black Gay Men United Against Aids.
So Dennis, it’s quite a kind of activist heavy introduction that I gave you, but I want to just start with something a little different because whilst preparing for the interview I was reading Jason Okundaye’s book Revolutionary Acts which has a chapter dedicated to an interview with you that Jason did, and there’s something that you mentioned in it, around the time that you joined the Black, Lesbian and Gay Centre, you were working in Elephant and Castle, and you recalled going into WHSmith in the Elephant and Castle shopping centre, and seeing a copy of James Baldwin’s novel, Another Country. And as you explained it, this was, I think, the book that really introduced to Black literature. Could you talk us through that experience in a bit more detail?
DC: Sure, so as it says in the book, one lunchtime I was walking through Elephant and Castle shopping centre as I did most days during lunchtime. And one day I decided to go into WHSmith’s, which wasn’t a shop that I went into very often, I’d say. And I was looking at all the books on the shelves and there were no books by any Black writers. And the only book I saw, and the only reason why I even touched the book, was because there was a pencil drawing, an outline drawing of James Baldwin a Black man on this cover. And I’d never heard of him, I didn’t know who he was. I just thought, oh. So I picked it up, and I read that book, and after reading it, that book changed my life, ‘cause it really articulated a lot of the things that I’d kind of those about race and identity and all that kind of stuff and put it onto the printed page, and I’d never seen that before. I mean prior to that I think I was reading Bertie Wooster, you know, Wuthering Heights, I can’t remember, but yeah, not stuff that I really identified with.
But with Baldwin, oh gosh, I mean, he just really opened my eyes to the world of books. I mean, if it wasn’t for me picking up that book in WHSmith’s, I wouldn’t have all these books, hundreds of books that I have.
And so really, yeah, he changed my life, and I’m really thankful as I say that, you know, 40-odd years later, how significant and important me walking into WHSmith’s was at that time, ‘cause at the time I didn’t know, years later when I reflect back, I’m just so glad that that happened.
RW: Did it lead to a continuing relationship with Baldwin’s work?
DC: Oh without question, I mean, oh gosh I can’t remember how many of his books I’ve read. I follow an account on Instagram where they post his interviews every day. Yeah, I mean, it’s been a part of my life and my world, my reality, ever since I picked up that book, yeah.
RW: And I guess, in some ways it seemed to me, kind of fortuitous that you hadn’t heard of Baldwin because of the circles you were beginning to move in, particularly in terms of organised gay politics or gay activism and so on. So was he a part of that community as well or…?
DC: Yeah, I would say, yeah, he definitely inspired BLGC. I mean, we organised events, I think we might have even done book readings. Yeah, no, he was a massive influence on, because remember, he was writing about gay love at a time when it was illegal to be gay in this country. That was revolutionary at the time, and still is, in my mind at least. Yeah, and I was inspired by that, and remember, in your introduction, one of the things I heard, was that I moved to London specifically so that I could live my life as a outed Black gay man, and if it wasn’t for Baldwin I don’t think I was able to do that. And actually, when I think about it, yeah, there’s a direct link between me picking up that book and me ending up at BLGC, because he just opened my eyes to an all-new reality that I was just not aware of. Because I think growing up in Manchester, at school nobody ever told me in English lessons about James Baldwin, and I had no idea who he was.
And so it was a massive eye-opener to me, yeah. And he definitely inspired BLGC, definitely without question, yeah.
RW: Yes. Well actually what you said about the reading group, there was one thing, a researcher on the project who found, this is from the LBGC newsletter, it must be from 1993, but it looks like a report on a reading group of The Fire Next Time so it’s interesting the way that sort of stuff was coming in.
DC: Yeah, without a question, yeah, yeah, because, I mean, his voice and, well I guess, yeah his voice, and his contribution to the Civil Rights movement, without him where would we be as a community of people around the world? I mean, yeah, and I guess we need that, and we needed that at the time, I think, for me, because there was just so few positive images of men who were Black and gay.
RW: Actually, this will be a bit of a document-heavy interview, because there’s something that I also brought along. Because it’s again something that came out of the Black Lesbian and Gay Centre archive, and it’s a tribute to James Baldwin which was, it’s got 1988 written in the corner in pencil, although with a question mark by it, but I think that’s probably when it would have been, and it’s a tribute on the occasion of Baldwin’s passing.
And I wondered if I could read it out, and then maybe we could kind of reflect on it, ‘cause it might help bring back some of that period. So I’ll read it out and then I’ll pass it to you, ‘cause I’ve only got one copy.
So, it says: ‘A special tribute to James Baldwin. To many of us who were young, Black, lesbian or gay, struggling to come to terms with our sexuality, James Baldwin played an important role in our lives. He gave us pride in being Black and gay and the strength to express freely our sexuality. For James Baldwin his gayness was an intrinsic part of his life and writings. He broke down both barriers of being Black and gay in the mainly white and straight world of literature. He never compromised or let bigotry undermine his exposure of the sufferings of his people.
In this short space we cannot hope to say all the things needed to give tribute to such a great man. The name of James Baldwin and what he stood for will live on. We hope that all will learn from his life and writings, and break free from the narrow-minded view that some leaders have, of what the struggle’ and both leaders and the struggle are in inverted commas there, ‘we must and will continue fighting for the liberation of black people and others from all forms of bigotry and oppression.
Baldwin’s writing, especially Just Above my Head, Another Country and Giovanni’s Room, will always have a special place in the hearts of Black lesbians and Black gay men. Fairwell to a friend who gave us hope in those lonely days of our youth, when our silent suffering seemed to have no end.’ And then it’s signed Lesbian and Gay Black Group, London.
DC: Aha.
RW: I guess first I wondered, if you remembered, I’ll pass it to you so you can see it, but if you remembered this tribute, or if you could think where it might have been for or circulated?
DC: Oh, well, I mean, the newsletter, the BLGC newsletter was circulated globally throughout the African diaspora, or Black Gay African diaspora, if you want to call it that. Yeah, so I can’t remember how many people were on our mailing list, but there were hundreds and hundreds of people, ‘cause I remember we used to have to put the newsletter in an envelope and stick a label on it, and put a stamp on it, back in the day. [00:10:00]
And, yeah, I think for me, everything that’s said in this is true, and it’s certainly true for me in terms of what I was saying earlier about how he inspired me to be the man that I am today. And I know that I wouldn’t be the man that I am today, or the happy homosexual that I am today if it wasn’t for James Baldwin in some way. Yeah. And I cannot underscore how significant this man has been in my journey. Yeah, and the world would be a lesser place without his voice, I think.
RW: Actually there’s more in here that I’m going to talk about, but actually, what you said about the diasporic reach of the centre: I wonder if we could just say a little bit about the centre itself, where it came from and what it was doing?
DC: So basically, I mean, I think it started from the Black Gay Group, that’s where I think the original idea came from, the idea was to set up a centre for Black lesbians and gay men. And so, a funding application was put in to the GLC and we got it, but I wasn’t involved in any of that process. And it was to fund two workers who would work to develop a Centre eventually. And what we decided was that we’d make those two posts into four part-time posts, to kind of spread the load a bit, and also give opportunities to others.
I can’t remember how long we worked on that project for it must have been a good, oh, not far off ten years, before we were able to open a Centre, the Black, Lesbian and Gay Centre, in Peckham, under a railway arch. And that for me, is quite significant because one of the struggles I remember at the time, trying to find a building or a property for the centre, was that it was just really expensive. And some of the places that we went to see, I mean, I’ll never forget we went to a place on Old Kent Road, I mean, you know, it was rat-infested, it was awful and they wanted to charge ridiculous amounts of money in rent. So we have to thank British Rail for giving us this arch in Peckham at a reasonable, but even then, you know, financially that was a real struggle for the organisation.
I think one of the things that a lot of people don’t realise is that in this country cats and dogs get more money in terms of charitable donations than Black, lesbian and gay communities ever have in the history of this country. So, yeah, it was a real struggle for us, I mean we’re dealing with the double realities of homophobia and racism. What you want to open up a Black Lesbian and Gay Centre? You’re not having it here. In fact, the reason why BLGC lost its funding was because Southwark Council, there was a councillor who discovered that this was in the borough, and he said, over my dead body will we continue to fund BLGC, and that was that, you know? And there was nothing we could really do about that at the time, we were powerless.
RW: Do you remember what difference it made getting that centre, do you remember when that was, the Peckham Centre?
DC: I can’t remember the exact dates. But it would have been late eighties, early nineties, that we opened the centre, probably early nineties.
RW: And prior to that it was all just happening in people’s houses?
DC: No, prior to that we had an office in Tottenham Town Hall. There was an annex, a Portakabin, in fact. Well, before that we were in another building opposite, I can’t remember the name of the building. Yeah, that’s where we first were, and I think we were there for about a year and a half or so. And then we moved into this Portakabin, gosh.
Yeah, and then we were there, for quite a few years, yeah.
RW: Yeah, I was just thinking about how having a public presence must have shifted over that period, through getting that?
DC: Yeah, I mean, I think the challenge for BLGC when I look back on it, was that we were focused on trying to open a centre for the community, however that focus was a bit diluted because we also had to deal with the impact of homophobia and racism on members of our community.
Yeah, and as I said, the financial challenges of finding a centre, and all of that kind of stuff, I mean, it was, looking back on it, what we achieved with very, very, very little resources, astounds me when I think back. Especially now that we have the internet, you know what I mean? It just blows my mind, and that we had a reach that wasn’t just in London, it was global, because you’ve got to remember as well, BLGC was the first publicly funded Black, lesbian and gay centre project in the world. And it happened here in London.
RW: Yeah.
DC: Peckham of all places. You know what I mean? When I look back on that it’s mind-blowing. And it’s great, I think the thing for me is that it’s great that there was archival material out there, that documents part of that history, ‘cause I don’t think it’s a story that gets told enough really, to be honest with you.
I was at an event just recently, by Cultural Archive, and they have a LGBT youth programme, and as I sort of say that it just blows my mind, because I’ve lived opposite there, four years, since it first opened, and I don’t recall any kind of gay content whatsoever, so…and it was young people that approached BCA, and it’s great that BCA welcomed them in and are supporting this programme.
RW: Aha.
DC: So yeah, so it’s just great that there’s information out there about BLGC and the difference that it made to people’s lives at the time.
RW: Yeah, absolutely, and also talking about that circulation of the leaflet, that thinking about that global reach of it as well as just that it shaped and allowed things in London, you know?
DC: Yeah. And I think as well, and I will just say about that global reach, it more often would have gone to somebody who was isolated in some part of the African diaspora, somewhere in Nigeria, somewhere in Philadelphia, somewhere in, yeah, and it was a lifeline to a lot of people, including me, yeah.
RW: I was kind of wondering as well, thinking about Baldwin, about transatlantic connections, connection with the States. And you said about Baldwin opening the world of Black literature up to you, and I wondered who else was on that radar? I think that African/American writers played quite a key role as well, yeah?
DC: Oh, without question, yeah. I mean the works of Audrey Lorde, particularly influenced and inspired BLGC. And in terms of that international connection, so BLGC hosted, I think it was the 10th International People of Colour Conference, and again, that wouldn’t have been possible if we weren’t producing this newsletter, ‘cause they wouldn’t have known who we were. And we’d been invited to previous conferences, and that’s how we got to host the 10th one.
I, through BLGC was invited to the Leadership Forum Conference in LA, where the Leadership Forum Conference basically was an annual conference that invited people from across America, within the Black queer community, and they had this annual conference. And I went, OMG, [00:20:00] ‘cause I’d never been in a space with hundreds of other Black queer people, and I was just so inspired by the experience of going to that conference. And it was because of that conference that I set up Let’s Rap, ‘cause I attended a workshop for Black queer men at the conference, and I was blown away by the experience, and I remember, I’ll never forget saying to myself after that workshop, when I get back to London, I am going to so the same thing and that’s how Let’s Rap came about.
RW: Ah, that’s brilliant.
The tribute is, there’s a couple of things in there that I found interesting, partly it’s something that you’ve talked about already which it expresses this as the important role of Baldwin for many of us who are younger lesbian and gay struggling to come to terms with our sexuality, and it’s something that you’ve talked about already and clearly also is something that you weren’t alone in that experience of Baldwin’s work as a way through that.
But there’s something else further down, which I hope you can talk about, which is that line about, “We hope that all will learn from his life and writings, and break free from the narrow-minded view that some ‘leaders’ have of what ‘the struggle’ is.” And I wondered if you could say more about what the tribute’s pointing us to there?
DC: Well, I guess the lack of recognition of his voice within the wider political discourse of race at that time. Yeah, I don’t remember any mainstream Black organisation celebrating his name or his work, especially back then. And so it was really important, actually, now that I think about it with that backdrop, that we increased his visibility and celebrated him, and we celebrated him at the opportunity we had. Because for us, he was our hero in a lot of ways.
RW: And also explicitly as a Black gay writer, rather than just only as a Black writer with his sexuality parked, yeah?
DC: Yeah, I mean Giovanni’s Room, that was the first time I’d ever read anything about queer love. The first time I had sex with another boy I was under the age of 21, and I’ll never forget, I was terrified that I was going to go to prison, absolutely terrified, if somebody found out. And that’s my first sexual experience. And, you know, I guess Baldwin in a lot of ways, gave me hope, you know, the idea that I’m sitting here talking to you, in a country that has legalised gay marriage, is almost inconceivable to me, especially when I was in my teenage years. Yet, here I am, living in a time when that’s possible. And for me, Baldwin has a direct relationship with that, yeah, certainly within the Black queer space.
RW: I wondered as well, if there is, you know, this tribute says, ‘Just Above My Head, Another Country and Giovanni’s Room,’ I wonder the extent to which there’s a kind of, a Baldwin that was read more within Black queer spaces, that’s different, or whether there’s an overlap, or whether they’re kind of different Baldwins for different…?
DC: That’s an interesting one. Well, I mean, I think homophobia would have turned a lot of people off reading those works, I think, at the time. But of course, it attracted a different segment of our community, the wider Black community. And so, yeah, so those books were significant and important to us. And it’s interesting, because I don’t remember, certainly The Voice doing an interview about Giovanni’s Room, I mean, I only ever read anything about that in the queer press, at the time, certainly yeah.
And so, but of course, because of the significance of Baldwin in terms of his contribution to the Civil Rights Movement particularly, it was impossible really for people to ignore his passing, really, as of significance. But I think his sexuality definitely played a role, over here, around access to his work, I would say.
RW: Well it’s interesting, ‘cause another thing I wanted to talk about, and again another thing that we found in the archive actually, which is to do with Section 28 or Clause 28, because, just by pure coincidence, just as Baldwin passes, it’s as that local government act 1988 is going through parliament, and then as the memorials are happening, are as it’s going through the Lords. And again this is something, which again, it’s coming through the Black, Lesbian and Gay Centre, there’s a great pamphlet that again, a researcher from our project found, called, ‘James Baldwin and the implications of Clause 28’, which opens with a quotation from Just Above my Head, that’s an intimate scene of gay love in the novel, and says, effectively, you know, this would be a banned book under this new legislation. So Section 28 of the local government act was, in the terms of the act was a ban on what it called the promotion of homosexuality within schools and by local authorities, so in libraries and so on. And of course, the Black, Lesbian and Gay Centre was vigorous in its campaigning against Clause 28 and it was great to see Baldwin brought in there.
Before we move onto the kind of Baldwin connect, first of all I wanted to ask was just about, if you could talk about your memories of Section 28 and campaigning against it?
DC: Oh yeah, I mean, BLGC was heavily involved in the campaign against Section 28. We organised a march, what did we call it, Gay Black Action? Oh, I can’t remember. But anyway, it was, I guess, a group of different organisations in Haringey, and I would have thought Femi would have been involved in that as well, which was the Haringey Lesbian and Gay Unit and we organised a march through Tottenham. Because I think one of the hot spots was a school in Tottenham that challenged this Section 28. I think they had a book, I can’t remember the name of the book, but it was a gay book, in the sense of, well, it was a children’s book if I remember rightly, and it had two dads and a girl.
RW: I think I’ve heard of this case, yeah.
DC: Yeah, I can’t remember the name of the book now. Yeah, and I think that’s what started a lot of activism around the march. But the thing that never ever will leave me, from that march, is, because I think up until that point, I just thought, when it came to the Black community, I was just facing a wall of homophobia that was impenetrable, and that every Black person, pretty much, is homophobic, until I went on that march. And the alliances that were formed, and partnership, yeah, I mean I was just blown away, the numbers of Black people who were in support of us. And it really changed, I have to say, my outlook at the time, it really revolutionised it actually, because I realised this is, the thoughts I’d had in my head about the Black community and homophobia weren’t true, and that I had to really recalibrate a lot of that thinking really. And it was as a result of that march.
RW: So it was Section 28 that kind of, do you think, was it something about that?
DC: It was a march against Section 28. In fact, the documentary film by Veronica McKenzie, Under your Nose, the promo image for that is of me on that march. Yeah. So, gosh…
RW: I’ll have to look that up.
DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Under your Nose, oh, it’s a really good documentary and it’s all about BLGC. Yeah.
RW: There’s a connection also through this, like I said, I mean, this campaign is just saying, you know, [00:30:00] Clause 28, it was at the time before it had passed, but if it passes we will lose Baldwin, specifically although it’s those books that we just talked about.
DC: Right.
RW: There was another piece that we found, which came out of Capital Gay magazine, and it was by Alex Hirst, and it was a commentary on the memorial for Baldwin that was held at Lambeth Town Hall in 1988 which was run by Creation for Liberation, which was the Race Today group, Caryl Phillips, Maya Angelou and so on.
DC: Oh right, well it wasn’t at Lambeth Town Hall.
RW: Wasn’t it at Lambeth?
DC: No.
RW: Okay, sorry.
DC: It was in St Matthew’s Church.
RW: Ah, okay, right, I’ve got it.
DC: I remember it vividly.
RW: Right, yeah. Okay, I might have actually added in the Town Hall, ‘cause I had it in my head that that was where it was at.
DC: I think it was at St Matthew’s church, back then, yeah.
RW: Well it’s an interesting piece, because I know that the Black, Lesbian and Gay Centre leafleted at the tribute, did they, at the memorial? I think I’d heard that, or did they not?
DC: Well, if they did, I would have been doing it, and I don’t remember leafleting anybody really.
RW: But you were at the…?
DC: I was actually at the memorial, yeah.
RW: Could you talk to use about your experiences of that?
DC: I mean, it was a long time ago. I remember Caryl Phillips gave a really powerful eulogy and I felt really good about that. And I remember Maya Angelou’s eulogy and whenever I think about that, I feel really angry about that, because I remember she stood up on stage and she said, if I recall correctly, oh, we all know Jimmy was, and she did this with her hands, to signify that he was gay. And that was it, that was the only reference to his sexuality. And I remember, I was seething that she could do that. And also, yeah, I guess in terms of the whole event, you know, the fact that he was queer in a lot of ways, was not hugely celebrated or acknowledged in a way that I felt happy with I guess, certainly with Maya Angelou I mean, in fact that night changed my relationship with Maya Angelou forever. I mean I’d read her all her books up until that point, and just recently I packed all her books away, ‘cause I don’t want them out, I don’t want to see them. And every time, and it’s interesting because I know the significance of her work, I’ve read it, you know, the massive impact that she has in the world. And I remember that experience, and not feeling happy about her at all. It changed my relationship with her completely that night, I have never read any of her work ever since.
RW: Were there other people there that kind of shared your feelings?
DC: Yeah, yeah, I remember talking to friends at the time, and afterwards, about it. I was just so pissed off, at the time. And, you know, and of course, I’ve reflected on this a bit, over the years, and in terms of Maya Angelou, she was coming from a generation before me, and so the language, understanding, awareness, blah, blah, blah, blah, it was just not the same as it was back then or today. And I guess I need to give her a little bit more grace, you know, and I was a young fire-brand, you know? And at that time, anything would piss anybody off, you know what I mean? It was like, yeah, and she was a product of her generation. And it’s only now that I think I can acknowledge that and see the experience a little bit more sympathetically, yeah. But I just remember how strongly I felt at the time.
RW: As we get older our own sense of people that we met who were older when we were young shift, don’t they?
DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s only just now, thinking about this, that you asked the question, that yeah, she very much was a product of her time. Because I guess I’ve found out more about her relationship with Baldwin since and I’ve even seen them being interviewed together, you know, and I don’t think that relationship could be as solid as it was if she was the rabid homophobe that she left me thinking that she was, after she did that.
RW: Yeah, well that actually, that kind of fluttering wings, is how it’s described in Capital Gay, was also what they picked up in that.
DC: Ah really?
RW: Yeah. I don’t know but I think the other point in the account of the memorial in Capital Gay was, actually just a sense of a missed opportunity, really, because of it being right at the time of Section 28 going through, and that Baldwin’s own books were at the risk of not being available in UK schools and libraries and that there was a feeling that his sexuality was either kind of unspoken, or spoken about in euphemism or excused. Yeah.
DC: That’s right, yeah, it was really minimised. And it’s interesting this about his books being excluded from schools, because of the possibility of Section 28. I will never forget the first time I walked into my local library and knew, ‘cause I’d realised that I was different from the other boys, and I needed to find out what I could about it. I’ll never forget walking out of that library feeling, like, because all I could find were books that said it was a sin, I was dirty, I had a mental health problem, it was all negative. And I’ll never forget the feeling I had walking out of that library, I just felt completely lost, yeah, I just…
And now, 40 years later, I can walk into Brixton Library, and I can find a book by James Baldwin in there, I can find In the Life, I can find Revolutionary X. I can find stories about the Black queer experience that I could not find when I was 16, 17. Yeah, and that fills my heart with a lot of joy and proves to me how much this world has moved on. Because it was impossible for me to find any positive content, I certainly didn’t find James Baldwin in that library at the time.
RW: Yeah. Actually the curiosity was when you had the Peckham Centre, did you have books and stuff there, was that a place that people could go into and actually…? Yeah?
DC: Oh yeah, ‘cause people donated stuff, we bought books as well.
RW: I’m just kind of thinking about how different the experience of being young and queer in Peckham in 1990, let’s say, when you could walk into a space and find that stuff, relative to in the 1970s when…
DC: It was huge, it was huge, yeah.
And it’s interesting, ‘cause I think, yes books are here today, but we also have the internet. And I think people’s relationship to books on the written page is very different to what it was back then, do you know what I mean?
For me, back then, books were life-saving to me, when I think about it. I mean, all of those books on that shelf there and there must be over 50, 60, every single one of them is written by a Black queer writer. And the only reason why those books are there is because of James Baldwin. And so because of him, I went on to seek out other Black queer writers, who also changed and influenced me in major, major ways. Yeah.
RW: You’re not the first person to say that about Baldwin’s writing, and it really does stick with me that you just think, Baldwin sitting there on his typewriter, it goes to the publisher, goes into a bookstore, and then it saves someone’s life or transforms it. And I think you’re totally right about the shift, actually, after the internet, that prior to that, these were the ways of getting to those worlds, you know?
DC: Yeah.
RW: You had to go to these places and find those books and, yeah.
DC: Yeah. And it’s interesting just talking about Baldwin, yeah, and looking up at the bookshelf. [00:40:00] It’s like, wow. And so yeah, he was a real education to me, you know, ‘cause I didn’t go to university, and so I learned so much through those books, and BLGC as well. Remember every single worker in BLGC had read Baldwin, do you know what I mean? And I think one of the reasons why I was around BLGC a lot, was because I was hanging around with some seriously smart people, thinking people. Yeah, and I was just so inspired by them, and also the other thing I thought as well, is that if Baldwin could do that then, then I can do this now, do you know what I mean? Yeah. And so he made me stronger, actually, gosh.
RW: And it’s interesting as well, that, kind of, is the difference between reading a book on your own which can be transformative, but then also discussing it with people, or knowing that other people are reading it as well, and having those groups which kind of transforms your relationship to it again, I guess?
DC: Yeah, totally, totally. And yeah, I’m just, again I can’t stop saying it, I’m just so thankful that I walked into WHSmith’s that lunchtime, because seriously, I don’t think I would have found BLGC if it wasn’t for Baldwin. Yeah. And even though I found BLGC by accident, yeah…
RW: You were ready, yeah?
DC: Yeah, most definitely and Baldwin prepared me, I think for that, in a lot of ways. And I’ve never really realised, until this interview, how much that incident in Elephant and Castle changed my life, yeah.
RW: Oh brilliant, well that’s a good point to end, unless there’s more stuff that you want to talk about, I feel like we’ve covered a lot and it’s been, oh, thank you so much, it’s been fantastic.
DC: My pleasure Rob, my pleasure.
End of transcript
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